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Methods of creating sour beer without using ''Brettanomyces'' are also considered a form of mixed fermentation. In general, these methods include pitching a pure culture of ''Lactobacillus'' along with brewers yeast at the same time or staggered with pitching ''Lactobacillus'' first for a day or two and then brewers yeast (Cascade Brewing is known for the latter process <ref>Tonsmeire, Michael. "American Sour Beers: Innovative Techniques for Mixed Fermentations". Brewers Publications, Jun 15, 2014. Pg 125.</ref>). In some cases, the brewer's yeast (''Saccharomyces cerevisiae'' or ''Saccharomyces pastorianus'') can be pitched first, and then the ''Lactobacillus'' is pitched (see "Reverse MTF Method" below). Since ''Brettanomyces'' is removed from the process, these methods tend to create a sour beer in a shorter amount of time, but without the complex ester and phenol profile of ''Brettanomyces''. While these types of beers may be less complex than beers with ''Brettanomyces'', they produce a different beer than [[Wort Souring|Kettle soured]] beers. Several studies have shown that co-fermentation of brewers yeast and lactic acid bacteria produces an objectively different beer than kettle souring or adding pure lactic acid. Pre-acidifying with lactic acid bacteria fermentation can also negatively affect the primary yeast fermentation, but other studies have shown that it can also result in a faster fermentation time but with less attenuation and other methods less yeast growth. See the [[Lactobacillus#Effects_on_Mixed_Fermentation|''Lactobacillus'' Effects on mixed Fermetnation]] wikipage for more information on these studies.  ==="Reverse MTF Method"===Devin Bell reported getting a good level of sourness by co-pitching probiotics with ''L. plantarum'' or Omega Labs OYL-605 with yeast, or even after primary fermentation (also known colloquially as the "Reverse MTF Method"). By allowing the yeast to ferment for two or three days before adding ''Lactobacillus'' for souring wort before , it is claimed that this method allows the yeast character to be expressed more so than with kettle sours. In the case of pitching brewer's 'L. plantarum'' after fermentation with saison yeast, Bell reported that the beer turned out like a sour saison, where as well as pitching lactic co-pitched makes for a better Berliner Weisse or Gose style beer without the "saison" yeast character. This has also improved head retention in his beers. Using no hops seems to be required in order to get acid bacteria production from the ''L. plantarum'' after primary fermentation . Devin clarified that his "best success" is pitching ''S. cerevisiae'' saison strain with brewera selection of ''Brettanomyces''s yeastfor primary fermentation. After 5-7 days of fermentation, are examples he pitches ''L. plantarum'' (2 shots of this processGoodBelly or 1 package of Omega Labs OYL-605 for 5-6 gallons of beer) <ref>[https://www.facebook.com/groups/MilkTheFunk/permalink/1739156616112545/?comment_id=1739183316109875&reply_comment_id=1739749539386586&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D Devin Bell. Milk The FunkFacebook group. See [[Wort Souring06/30/2017.]] and [</ref>. Once terminal gravity is reached (1.002-1.004), he bottles right away. The bottles can be served at 8 weeks in the bottle, but start to peak at 24 weeks <ref>[Alternative_Bacteria_Sources#MTF_https://www.22Reverse_Kettle_Sourfacebook.com/groups/MilkTheFunk/permalink/1562696320425243/?comment_id=1562702310424644&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22|%3A%22R0%22%7D MTF discussion with Devin Bell on "Reverse Kettle Sour"reverse MTF kettle sour. 01/26/2017.]</ref>. See also [https://www.facebook.com/groups/MilkTheFunk/permalink/1217518078276404/ this thread by Devin Bell]and [https://www.facebook.com/groups/MilkTheFunk/permalink/1728489143845959/ this thread by (Zach) Caroline Whalen Taggart]. * [https://www.facebook.com/SouthernBrewersConference/videos/881235365357984/ Devin Bell and Dan Pixley presentation at SBC 2017 on quick souring, including more details on this method.]