Talk:Cider
Corrections from Tariq Ahmed (updated DanABA (talk) 15:30, 29 September 2018 (CDT)):
Hey Dan,
Was just reading the cider page and noticed a couple mistakes. You had sent me a link to edit a while back but I can’t seem to find it so I thought I’d just let you know.
1. Under the Malolactic Fermentation section, it says MLF decreases pH. That’s incorrect, MLF increases pH (decreases acidity).
2. Under Spontaneous Fermentation, there is this note:
“The other major issue faced by cold fermented ciders is sulfur production. Due to the colder temperatures, the sulfur will off gas less, again requiring warming of the cider to encourage off gassing. If the cider tastes good otherwise, further fermentation can be halted with the use of sulfites. Adding more sulfur containing compounds to already sulfurous cider may not be the best decision, however, so you would have to balance the potential flavour contribution with the stability of the cider.”
So, there’s a bit of confusion here because the same generic ‘sulphur’ term is being used to describe two very different things.
The ‘sulphur’ aroma being produced during fermentation is hydrogen sulfide (H2S). This compound is also commonly produced by saison yeast strains. It is produced during fermentation because yeast are liberating sulphur from sulphur containing amino acids, as they use them for nutrition in lieu of easier to use amino acids.
Sulphites (SO2) are a completely different compound used for stabilization and protection against oxygen. SO2 actually helps reduce H2S so saying this:
‘Adding more sulfur containing compounds to already sulfurous cider may not be the best decision, however, so you would have to balance the potential flavour contribution with the stability of the cider.’
Is wrong.
Sulphiting (AKA adding SO2) eliminates H2S by the following reaction:
2H2S + H2SO3 → 3S + 3H2O (Adding sulphites in aqueous solution is H2SO3).
Sulphur compounds in wine/cider and yeast metabolism in general are actually a little more complicated than what I wrote above. Here’s a good link: https://brocku.ca/ccovi/wp-content/uploads/sites/125/Karl-Kaiser-Controlling-reductive-red-wine-aroma-2010-.pdf brocku.ca brocku.ca Brock teaches wine and cider making courses here in Ontario
Potentially Useful Links
MTF threads that might be relevant to writing this article:
- https://www.facebook.com/groups/MilkTheFunk/permalink/1287268991301312/
- Tariq Ahmed on using Oenococcus oeni for MLF in cider: https://www.facebook.com/groups/MilkTheFunk/permalink/1347683325259878/
- Spontaneous fermentation with apple pumace at Council Brewing Co.
- MLF with LAB thread on MTF, and acetic acid.
- Blue Owl describes a rise in pH from MLF fermentation using a culture isolated from malted barley.
- MTF discussion.
- Using sulfur in cider making.
- Tips on using dregs from Spanish ciders.
- Tariq on cider solera, and blending with MLF ciders.
100% Brettanomyces Section
Talk about using only Brettanomyces to ferment cider.
Oenococcus oeni section?
Keeving Section
Graff??
Should we discuss blending funky/sour beer and cider? Do people do this? Are there references? Need more info.